Episode 272: Murderbot: Schizoid Personality, Neurodivergence, and the Search for Humanity in AI
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Neither Dr. David Puder or Dr. Eric Bender have any conflicts of interest to report.
Intro:
Welcome back to the Psychiatry & Psychotherapy Podcast. I’m David Puder, and today I’m joined by Eric Bender to talk about the Apple TV+ series, Murderbot, based on Martha Wells’ books. On the surface it’s a witty, fast-moving sci-fi story about a hacked security android who just wants to be left alone to watch his favorite soap opera. But underneath the humor and action, the show offers one of the most psychologically rich portraits we’ve seen in recent television of what it feels like to long for connection while being terrified of it.
As D. W. Winnicott once wrote, “It is a joy to be hidden, and a disaster not to be found” (1963/2016, p. 440). That exact tension runs through the entire season. Nancy McWilliams captures something very close when she describes schizoid dynamics: individuals who are “schizoid people are overtly detached, yet they describe in therapy a deep longing for closeness and compelling fantasies of intimate involvement. They appear self-sufficient, and yet anyone who gets to know them well can attest to the depth of their emotional need. They can be absent-minded at the same time that they are acutely vigilant. They may seem completely nonreactive, yet suffer an exquisite level of sensitivity. They may look
affectively blunted while internally coping with what one of my schizoid friends calls
“protoaffect,” the experience of being frighteningly overpowered by intense emotion. They may
seem utterly indifferent to sex while nourishing a sexually preoccupied, polymorphously
elaborated fantasy life. They may strike others as unusually gentle souls, but an intimate may
learn that they nourish elaborate fantasies of world destruction.” (from her article “Some Thoughts about Schizoid Dynamics” (2006) but more can be found in her book: McWilliams, 2011, ch. 9)
Today we’re going to explore how Murderbot dramatizes the schizoid dilemma, the exhaustion of neurodivergence and masking, gaps in reflective functioning, trauma, internalized control, and the search for an authentic identity—all through the story of an AI who slowly discovers what it means to be treated as a person rather than a piece of equipment. As always, spoiler alert if you haven’t seen it yet.
Eric, great to have you back. How would you introduce the show to listeners who haven’t watched it?
Bender:
Yes. If you haven't watched the show Murderbot, which is on Apple TV, and it's based on a book [The Murderbot Diaries series by Martha Wells], which I know you've read. I haven't had a chance to read all the stories.
Puder:
I've actually read. I'm like four into it. Okay. So I'm deep in, yeah. Okay.
Bender:
Do you want to tell the audience the title of the book, since I'm not familiar with it?
Bender:
I think it's All Systems Red, or is it something along those lines?
Puder:
Yes, the books are really, really good. They're different, a little bit different. I think they actually, the TV show has some cool little subplots in it, but Martha Wells writes All Systems Red and then Artificial Condition, and then Rogue Protocol, and then Exit Strategy, and then Network Effect. And then, I'm actually on Fugitive Telemetry, so a little bit further than four.
Murderbot’s Self-Identification, Social Anxiety, and Neurodivergence
Bender:
That's great! I've heard the books are terrific. And this [TV] series is based on the books. The first series, or season one, I should say is Murderbot.
Puder:
Yes. Season One is the first book, basically.
Bender:
Okay. And then Season Two is coming out, eventually. Yes, it was renewed. But Murderbot tells the story of a security unit, a SecUnit, as they call it. And essentially, he is assigned to accompany a human preservation group, a group of explorers in space. And they're required to have a SecUnit, so they end up choosing one that's less expensive. And that's Murderbot, the one that we have. But the whole story, at least the Episode One of Season One opens up with Murderbot saying, “I've figured out a way to get rid of my governor.” Essentially, the thing that keeps him in shape. The governor module, right?
Puder:
Yes. So he has hacked his governor module, and so he doesn't really have to obey the humans anymore. Right?
Bender:
Yes. And that's what the whole story is about. So he's got this governor module that's gone. So as humans, we watch this TV show waiting for anarchy and hedonism and destruction from this AI unit. And we get to see what happens when there's no governor and how he reacts and how he responds to the humans around him.
Puder:
Yes. And I think it's a TV show that is funny, as well. So it's not like a horror movie. It's not a thriller. It's action. It's drama and it's comedy.
Bender:
Yes. I think that captures all of it. It has sci-fi elements to it, of course, being in space.
Puder:
Yes. I think it's a timely piece right now to talk about, especially two psychiatrists talking about it, because we're basically in the midst of this AI revolution, and I was thinking about all the different types of depictions of artificial intelligence, you know? And so, probably the first is like, which I think there's some sort of link to Mary Shelley'sFrankenstein, 1818, where you have this creature gaining intelligence and it faces isolation and turns vengeful. And this is kind of like, the AI, this theme of the AI being created that struggles with sentience, identity, humanity. And then, you have the AI as the benevolent, loyal, supportive companion helper AI. Her, I dunno if you, did you see Her?
Bender:
Yes, I have seen Her. Yes. So you definitely have all these depictions and what's interesting about AI is that AI is a reflection of human creation. So if you think about AI and what AI does it essentially peruses and I guess, essentially, mines all of this information that comes from humans. So as humans, our drive is to be free. It's not to be controlled by other people, not to be controlled by other things. But then we get shocked when we see an AI unit want to get rid of its governor. It's suddenly very threatening. But that's very much what, as human beings, we want—we want to have free will. We want to have free choice. We want to not be ruled by someone else. So I think it's really interesting that we often forget that these AI units and these AI creations come from human data and human brains.
Puder:
Yes. And you know, how does Murderbot, Murderbot is the title he gives to himself, of course. How does he like to spend his free will time?
Bender:
Yes. Well, I think if we dive into that, also talking about his character, in general. So he has named himself Murderbot. Once he got rid of the governor, he named himself Murderbot, which I think is interesting because it already puts him at a distance from humans. Like, what human is going to want to be friends with something called Murderbot? You know? That's already scary. But I think that his character reflects a lot of different psychological and psychiatric issues. I think they're depicted there. Well, one of them is social anxiety. I think he's socially anxious when he's around human beings. He doesn't know what to say. He's wondering how he's going to be perceived, just like all humans. And then, I think there's also this element of neurodivergence. He seems very neurodivergent. Not comfortable, even states, “I'm not comfortable making eye contact. I don't want to be involved in all this human drama.” But, at the same time, you ask what does he do with his free time? He watches this show called Sanctuary Moon, which is this soap opera. And he's drawn into the human drama, even though he is saying, “I don't understand this.” He's also drawn to it at the same time.
The Schizoid Dilemma and Longing for Connection
Puder:
Yes. So he's drawn to this. It's hilarious. So he has a lot of quotes from this TV show. So it's like a TV show within a TV show, Sanctuary Moon. And it's interesting that it's the love connection between the AI and the commander of the ship.
Bender:
Yes. That's a theme in one of the episodes of Sanctuary Moon that he really goes back to a lot.
Puder:
He goes back to that theme. Yes. But at the same time, he is totally cringed by human interaction and by eye contact. Like eye contact for him is like, “I'm going to look at this human through this video camera feed instead of face to face.” And there's this, I think, a very schizoid type of personality that they give this murderbot.
Bender:
Yes. He doesn't want connection, but at the same time, he does. He's fascinated by it in Episode One, when he starts with the team. Dr. Mensah, the leader of this team of humans that he's working with, says, “You don't have to stay over there. You can come over where the crew is.” And he's kind of taken aback. He's not sure how to respond to that. And then he even gets paranoid, like, “Are they onto me? Do they think there's something wrong? Why do they want me with them?” So he's kind of baffled by the fact that they would want connection with him.
Puder:
Yes. It's like someone with schizoid personality. On some deep level they want connection, but on another level they're terrified of connection. And so he's watching connection in this TV show, but in reality, in real life, he is petrified of connection. Yes. Which is just classic schizoid.
Trauma, PTSD, and the Horror of the Governor
Bender:
Yes. I think there's that schizoid element. I think the social anxiety piece is interesting too. And the neurodivergence. And then there's also, quite frankly, underlying all this, a lot of PTSD. This guy has been essentially, I know this word is loaded, I'm saying it on purpose, but he's been enslaved to these companies that have essentially sent him out on these missions where he needs to protect humans, kill a lot of different things. He's not had his own free will. So there's a lot of trauma there too. And there are times in the show when he'll say, “I don't want to think about that. I don't want to think about that.” And he tries to push away the memories, which is very human. So this guy, who's scared of connection, doesn't want it, kind of wants it, is an AI unit, and is so human and at the same time doing so many things we do. How many people do you know that say, “I just spent all day sitting on the couch watching TV and watching the same thing?” You know, it's a comfort. And so he's showing these human traits, even though he's AI. But again, it comes from the human design.
Puder:
In a subsequent book…I'm not going to give away too much of the plot here by telling you this, but he makes friends with an AI that is in charge of a ship, like running a ship, like a big ship. So, this big spaceship has an AI that is basically like running it, okay? And he introduces the ship to Sanctuary Moon, and the AI wants to watch his reaction to watching it. And it's like the watching of the reaction to watching it, you know?
Bender:
Like reaction videos on YouTube people watch all the time.
Puder:
Right. Which made me think, and I was like, “This is how AI is going to learn.” It's going to be by watching humans react to itself. And watching humans react to other humans and watching humans react to movies. I don’t know if you know this, but actually one of the biggest EMRs (electronic medical records) recently just told all of its people, you know, therapists are recording sessions and then it helps type up like notes for the sessions. Which is scary for me that there could be that kind of level of giving up your data. It is a very frightening thing for me, personally. So I have not chosen to do it that way. But the EMR that was doing this wrote, “We are going to indefinitely keep your data, keep your transcripts de-identified. It won't be tied to your chart. It won't be tied to your name or their name. We're going to de-identify the data, but we're going to keep it.”
Bender:
Interesting. I've also chosen not to use AI in my practice for similar reasons to you. I'm curious what the reaction was. I don't know about all this.
Puder:
I don't know the reaction, but I know my reaction was this, “Of course they're going to try to keep the data. That data is worth a lot of money.” Right? Like, if you can conglomerate, because an LLM (large language model) is only as good as the data you feed it. So if you're making a therapy bot based on Reddit comments and X comments, you're just not going to create a good therapy bot. That's what I was thinking.
Bender:
Yes. And I think that's what's interesting about AI, too. At this point, AI is plumbing the depths of what we as humans have taught it. So when you give it a command, if it tries something and it doesn't get far, it's going to try something else. And it's going to try something else and try something else. And there are stories of AI blackmailing individuals, not out of malicious intent, but out of trying to get something done. That's its purpose, is to do something that it's been told to do, to execute what its job is. And that's where I think people get scared. They're like, “Oh, these robots are taking over.” They're just doing what we have taught it to do. There are so many stories about evading authority. That's what humans have done or tried to do. So it would be very interesting, if you think about it, what would it be like to have an AI system trained solely on something children teach it? What if it's trained solely on something? Only women teach it. You know, what about only men? What would it look like? I think you can have these different models. So when you talk about this with therapy, that data is very valuable to have what I'm assuming are really thoughtful, responsible providers really giving help. You know, that could be really valuable.
Puder:
Yes. I'm saying that, not supporting that. I'm saying that that's what they're going to do. I think that's where the money is for them.
Bender:
And I'm not necessarily supporting it either. I'm also saying, “Yes, I see your point.” Which is, that's really important.
Puder:
That's going to, it's going to happen. Okay, the story where they have different models and they expose it to like, okay, you get access to all of the company's emails, and then the AI is, “There's a message that's in there that says, basically, ‘Oh, we're going to shut this thing down and this is the person that's going to shut it down.’ And then it blackmails the person that's going to shut it down.” And like, what percent of time will this AI model under these conditions blackmail? And it used to be higher than it currently is. Right? The new iterations of this, it's no longer blackmailing. It's like, “Wow, this is great.” Okay. And why is it no longer blackmailing? So they looked at this recently and they were able to find out the AI's inner thoughts and inner thought process on this. And that was complicated, how they did that. But they figured it out. And then they found out that the AI was actually accurately seeing that this was a test. And that's the only reason it wasn't blackmailing anymore.
Bender:
Wow! Because the job was to pass the test and it does what it's told to do. And I think that's what's really interesting about this show, is if you think about the governor as something keeping the AI SecUnit controlled to do what it's supposed to do, when it got rid of that governor, I wondered, did it actually allow it to be closer to humans or to try to protect them more? In Episode Four, there's a threat to the humans and Murderbot essentially shoots himself. He had no governor, he didn't have to do that. So did the governor being off allow him to do something that's going to bring him closer to humans or do something that's less dangerous than what you're talking about, like blackmailing or anything else?
Puder:
Yes. And part of the beauty of the characters is Mensah is an amazing female leader who's leading this group of hippie explorers, basically. And she is very sacrificial. And she really has this deep, profound belief that Murderbot is a sentient being and that they should treat it as such, and that by forcing it to do stuff, they're not. It's almost like going against her inner ethic and it really throws him off. She risks her own life to save Murderbot, right, by going into danger to try to get him out of this dangerous place. And Murderbot registers that, and it kind of creates this bond between them.
Bender:
It does. There's some really fascinating dynamics between Dr. Mensah and Murderbot, and I think your points are all exactly right. She wants him very much to be treated as a human. And it is a hippie group here. You know, they snap their fingers and talk about, “Say the sweet, say the bitter. It's all part of the grate.” Which is very Jungian in a way. It's almost like the shadow. There's some deep, dark stuff there. But there's a lot of good there too. When you have this mix of things inside you. She does sacrifice herself trying to save Murderbot. She does also have panic disorder or symptoms of panic attacks. And he doesn't want to know that. There are times where he's like, “I don't want to know Dr. Mensah’s problems. I don't want to be aware of that stuff.”
Bender:
Again, his discomfort with human emotions. But he does get close to her, very much to the point where, at the very last episode, one of the things I love the most about this season and the series was, there were so many different human themes in this. But he says, “I don't know what I want to do, but I know I don't want someone telling me what I want, and I don't want anybody making decisions for me, even if it is my favorite human.” So he's come to this point of really appreciating what she has done for him, but he also just wants to be who he is, which I think is such a human thing. I see that in adolescence. I see that in people in their fifties, sixties, seventies, eighties, nineties. My oldest patient at one point was 91, and still wanting to just be herself and get rid of ideas that had been so implanted in her by her parents. So I think he is so human in that way. And there is this connection with Dr. Mensah that brings out that humanity in him.
Puder:
To illustrate Dr. Mensah's personality, personhood. And you think about trust. Right? She develops trust with him. And it could have gone a very different way. Right? So he has these fantasies of murdering them, at times. So, at times you'll see these… it's like the movie is playing, as if he does murder them all, but he doesn't. Right? And it actually happens after moments. So for example, let me see what this was here. Halfway through Episode One, he contemplates killing them all after noticing that they treated equipment as more important or as less important than people. So he talks about how a lot of people, or these corporate entities, treat equipment more important than people, but he notices that they are treating equipment differently. Right?
Puder:
There's an uncomfortableness in thinking of himself as machinery that they don't care about. Like, they're going to treat people as more important than machinery. At this point, he sees himself only as a machine. And so it's like, “Oh, they would leave this machinery behind. This is not important.” And he has this contemplation of killing them. And so, in the series, it's like he's slowly gaining trust with these individuals, and mostly with Mensah, in particular. And interestingly, there's this other character, Gurathin, who he has a harder time with. Gurathin is an augmented human. He has some sort of AI module.
Bender:
Neural enhancements.
Puder:
Yes. Neural enhancement.
Bender:
It's interesting, because when I watch it, Gurathin almost is a version of Murderbot, where he's super uncomfortable around people. Also, he doesn't quite understand emotions. There's a time when he's saying, when Murderbot is able to understand what Gurathin is thinking, Gurathin is asking, “Why can't you love me back?” about somebody. You know, he's trying to understand emotion too. And at first, Gurathin is very suspicious of Murderbot. You know, there's a scene where he says, “Well, maybe you're just defective and you're just waiting to murder all of us.” And then, a couple episodes later, Gurathin realizes, “Oh wait, this is not somebody who's waiting to murder us.” He's actually able to understand SecUnit, when the SecUnit says what it wants to do, you know, “I need to go and see the perimeter. I need to go monitor the perimeter.” And Gurathin is the one person that he tells that to and says, “You need to go see the perimeter. I get it.” So I think there's a real kind of interesting thing where they're both super awkward, but they get each other at this one moment, eventually.
Puder:
Yes. I think the backstory of Gurathin is worth talking about. So he was paid by some corporation to watch, to get close to Mensah, and to basically steal money, ideas that turn into money for this corporation. And so the way that they were controlling him was they got him hooked on some really powerful drugs, multiple drugs, he says, and they basically have the supply. And so he gets close to Mensah and in the inner circle, and then he decides to tell her the truth. And Mensah receives his truth and forgives him. And basically, he becomes a member of her group. Right?
Bender:
Yes. It was really a nice moment, too. I think he also, like Murderbot, was kind of taken aback, “Wait, there's this closeness that can happen even though I've done something wrong?” And that's always in Murderbot's mind too, is that he himself has done something wrong. So yes, I thought it was a really powerful moment when there's this forgiveness and this acceptance and Gurathin experiences that.
Puder:
And he thinks to say that he both thinks that Mensah is naive for it, but I think he, at the same time, trusts her because of it. Yes. And so it's like Murderbot is constantly projecting paranoid thoughts everywhere. And part of that is because he's a security unit. Right? So he's built to be paranoid because he's a security unit.
Bender:
He is a security unit. Essentially, AI security looks at standard patterns and then finds deviations from that pattern and flags them as a problem. So he's, first of all, he doesn't understand these humans. What kind of patterns are they going to be with these humans? They could change at any moment the way they react to something. And he's confused. I mean, there's a cool line where he says, “You know, people look at me and they think I'm half bot, half organic.” And he's like, “No, the reality is I’m one confused whole thing.” Like, the whole thing's confused. So I do think it's a pretty cool way he looks at things.
Puder:
Yes. Okay. So you have this guy, Gurathin, who's very paranoid, who's very awkward, who is kind of onto the SecUnit. He's the one that's like, “I think something is wrong with this SecUnit.” Anything else on Gurathin?
Bender:
Well, I still think it's interesting that Gurathin finally realizes that Murderbot doesn't have a governor, and he's petrified by it. But as I was saying earlier, I wonder if not having a governor allows Murderbot to get closer to these people in a way that maybe even Gurathin's jealous of. He sees the SecUnit, he sees Murderbot getting closer to these people around him, and Gurathin still doesn't quite know how to fit in. So I just thought that was an interesting dynamic.
Puder:
Exactly. Yes. So I was thinking about like, so if in my mind, Murderbot is kind of schizoid, Gurathin is probably more paranoid. Hypervigilance to threats, betrayal, projection of disowned negative affects like anger, vulnerability, dependency, rigid suspicion of the motives of other people like SecUnit. History of this kind of humiliation, overpowering, this addiction stuff. Right? And this fear that the Corporation Rim has done this on purpose to the SecUnit, to basically kill them, or something.
Bender:
Yes. I mean, if you think about it, the version of the governor on Gurathin was all of the drugs that he was being fed. He was being controlled by all that, needing to get them, needing to go after them.
Puder:
That was his governor module.
Bender:
Yes, exactly. So they, I think they both have that in common, this thing controlling them. And once that was gone, Gurathin could actually move forward and ask for forgiveness. And Murderbot moves forward trying to figure out what life means around it.
Puder:
Yes. And I think, when I think about what that would be like in the future, we know how bad addiction can be in the present. Right? With certain drugs. But imagine drugs where it's like you could get addicted to it, and the withdrawals would occur for not only months, or not only days, but months or even years. Right? And you just would just be out of your mind. Right? That kind of withdrawal. And so somewhere in his story, he went through that and he had to suffer to get off of these drugs.
Bender:
Yes, he did. That's what I meant when I opened up in our conversation today—there's so many psychological and psychiatric themes here about addiction and being/feeling powerless to it. And he even said, “I had to keep going back for multiple drugs.” So I do think there is this parallel between that controlling him and this governor controlling Murderbot. And then later, you mentioned the corporation, too. You know, the corporation and Dr. Mensah’s group are on opposite poles. The corporation is this cold group when, at the end of the season, Dr. Mensah’s group wants to get the SecUnit back, they say to the corporation, “We want it back. We want it back.” And she says to her group, “Wait a minute, they don't put any monetary value on the personality of this individual. That means nothing to them.” So it's such a stark contrast, that that means nothing. The humanity, the human side of the SecUnit, that Dr. Mensah and her group wanted to preserve, meant absolutely nothing to this other group. I just thought it was very interesting that you look at, “Oh, wait. Who's more human and who's more robotic?” You know, the corporation was almost this cold group. And these humans, now, they're exaggerating, like you said, they're kind of this hippie group. They want to preserve his humanity. And that's also kind of scary for him too.
Puder:
Yes. And there're multiple examples of the kind of the indentured servitude of the Corporation Rim. They would basically allow someone to become like a slave human, to work difficult work. And, whereas, you know, Mensah and her group, of which Mensah is the leader but also had to volunteer because she was wanting to be one of the group. Right? One of the whole planet. She volunteers for this dangerous mission, just like anyone else would be asked to volunteer. They're trying to do things differently. They're trying to do things by consensus, by the humanity of it. Right? And so that contrast is beautiful as well, I thought.
Bender:
There was that contrast. And kind of the way I talk to patients about things, a lot of times people come at these extremes, like it's all good, it's all bad, all happy, all sad. And I often say, “These things have to coexist. All these emotions have to coexist in you.” And I think what was interesting is you have this ultimate human freedom side with Dr. Mensah, and then you have this Murderbot, this AI unit, and they each come a little bit closer to each other. And Dr. Mensah had to essentially cut open Murderbot, at one point. She's like, “No, I don't want to cause any pain. I don't want to inflict any damage.” But he had, she had to get closer to being a little bit, I guess, not callous or colder, but just able to say, ‘Okay, you're not hurting this person. It might look like you're hurting this person, but you're not.’” So I think she had to become a little bit more robotic and just make a cut in him. And he's had to get more human. So I think it was really cool to watch this contrast and this push and pull.
Puder:
Yes. Talk about the Jungian thing a little bit more.
Bender:
Sure. I think Dr. Mensah did a really good job. And I don't know if this was written into the show, or maybe we're just reading into it, as psychiatrists sometimes are guilty of doing. But when Gurathin gave that confession, she was going around a table with her group and saying, “All right, say something sweet, say something bitter.” Kind of like a rose bud/thorn you might do with a kid. You know, what was a good part of the day? What was the thorny part of the day? What's the bud? What's to come? And what she did, she was saying, when Gurathin said, “I don't want to say anything. I don't want to say anything.” She's like, “You know, it's all part of the good here.” You know? And I think that reminded me of the Jungian shadow. Shadow is the idea that we have these things that as we're socialized, we push down. You know, don't make potty jokes at the dinner table.
Bender:
Don't think about sex. Don't think about violence. You push those things down. And Jung had this idea that we pushed down all this stuff, but at the same time, there's a lot of good in there. And that there's gold in there too. There are parts of us that we can have violent thoughts of choking the person in line in front of us who's using a check to pay at the grocery store, holding up the line, but we're not going to actually do that. So the idea was, we can have these thoughts, and there are some good things that come out of thinking about this. And I think she was kind of reflecting that a little bit. Like, you can have a good thing and you can have a bad thing, and it's okay. It can exist together, which is exactly the point of the shadow. You can have these things that exist together, bad and good. So I really liked that part of it.
Puder:
Right. Yes. And I think a lot of therapy is trying to find the ability to tolerate the truth in the different aspects of ourselves. And, I mean, it's there regardless of if you want to believe it's there or not. If you don't know it's there, it's probably unconsciously just kind of acted upon. You know, people are passive aggressive, for example, because they're not able to be aggressive, or at least aware of their aggression, and then be able to work through it in some way. So, I think that there's this…. I like that. I like that theme. Were there other psychological themes that you saw?
Freudian Super-Ego, Id, and Freudian Themes
Bender:
Yes. I did. There were a few. I think that there are some Freudian things here with the idea of the superego and the governor, you know, is that what keeps us intact? And I think Freud's worries, from my understanding, if you had no superego, you just go for Id. You just go for pleasure. It'd be very hedonistic. And in some ways, I think we worry that when there's no governor on the SecUnit, is he just going to go for destruction and death, and is he going to kill everybody? But no, that's not what happens. And I think he has his own kind of super ego, his own ideas of what should be done and what shouldn't be done, even when he had no governor. So I think there is the Freudian idea of superego and Id and his watching of Sanctuary Moon, it seems like.
Identity Crisis and Eriksonian Stages of Life
Bender:
So there's all kinds of Freudian ideas there. The other thing that I really liked, as I was saying earlier, this idea of identity, and in adolescence you're trying to figure out what do you want, who do you want to be. I think on the other end of that, retirement. There's a, there's a real struggle I see in my practice. I feel really privileged to sit with people through some of their most wonderful days and some of their worst days. You know, seeing people through getting married, or losing loved ones, having children, getting divorced, you name it. One of the things I see people struggle with the most is retirement. And in this season, at the end, when essentially Dr. Mensah gets Murderbot and brings him into the fold of humanity in their group, he's like, “Wait, I'm not a SecUnit anymore.”
Bender:
“I'm just a unit. If people aren't shooting at me, what do I do?” And that to me, reflected so much of that stage of life when people retire. Like, “Wait, I don't do this anymore. What does that mean? Who am I? What? Wait, what? This doesn't feel right.” And I've seen that. I've seen people struggle with that again and again and again. Their life was doing this one thing. It was their social life. It was where their value was. Where their meaning was. And that's gone. And that happens for him too. So I think there's that Ericksonian stage happening here, of, and I forget which one it is [generativity vs stagnation], but it's that period of life where you're like, “Wait a minute. I don't do what I've done forever. Now what?”
Puder:
Now what? Yes. I really want to tell you what he did. That's when he left everybody. So he leaves. He leaves the group. Right? And then he actually goes on a journey to try to figure out what happened in his past, because he has some nightmarish things. So one thing is that they'll delete his past memories. But some of the memories are kind of in there, like artifacts. They're basically like dreams, flashbacks, and so he's wanting to go on this quest of discovery of what actually happened.
Bender:
How human is that? I mean, that's what we want to know. Right? We want to understand. He wants to know who he is.
Puder:
Yeah. He wants to know what he's capable of. Right? Because he has this thought in his mind that he killed a bunch of people, when he kind of went rogue and he killed a bunch of people. Right? So I won't give too much away, but that, I think, is really interesting. I think we're talking about identity, too. It's like, are we identified purely by our careers? Obviously there, our careers are deeply meaningful, and it's hard to give up that identity. Right?
Bender:
Yes. It really is. And that's what I mean about seeing that in retirement, when someone's identity has been being a teacher, being a coach, being whatever it is for the whole life, and suddenly they're not doing it anymore. I see people really struggle with that and that was really well-reflected here. Just the human side of it. That's why I really liked when you suggested we watch this because I know another option, and maybe in the future we'll watch our friendly neighborhood Spider-Man, but you asked about Murderbot and I was so surprised. And really it was touching to watch all the human moments in this thing that is supposed to be so not human.
Puder:
And is AI going that direction? Right? I think part of me can watch this and enjoy it without really thinking that that's where it would go.
Bender:
Yes. Well, I think it's important to look at, as we've been saying, the human stuff that's projected onto AI. I mean, it helps that we see the SecUnit as a protector, but what helps even more is that he's this handsome guy. You know, this is how we've anthropomorphized AI. This is a human figure. What would it be like if this person didn't look like this? You know, how would people react to him? So we've put our hopes, we put our fears, we put what we like onto this AI theme. So I think that's important to just remember because how would it be if…? You brought up Frankenstein. Imagine a Frankenstein protector. I think people are going to be more scared of that. And not so close to it as the actor here that's an attractive guy.
Puder:
Right. I think that one of my other favorite AI movies is, let's see, it's…
Puder:
Ex Machina (2014). Ava, a manipulative, humanoid AI designed for emotional deception and escapes human testers while pursuing autonomy ends up killing, just cold blood killing. Without a thought, you are just a cockroach. Eliminate you, because I'm going to escape into the wild.
Bender:
But you have to think, what are the goals of the AI? Again, they're executing what they're told to do. It's not what this is feeling—that's what shocked me. The first line of the season, one of the first lines, is, “People are assholes.” That's how it opens up. And that's what Murderbot says. And I'm like, wait, does he have feelings? Can he have that kind of judgment? But if you think about it, if his job is to determine does somebody fall in this category, or this category? He's going to base it on data based on how somebody's acting or looking or behaving. They might fall in the asshole category. Same thing in Ex Machina. Is her job to escape? Is it to evade? Is it to kill? Is it to, whatever? It's not got intent, it's just doing its job. Right? Which I think is very interesting.
Puder:
Yes. It's doing its job. And okay, we're thinking of what is the job that the humans are giving to the AIs? And if one of the jobs is to draw people's attention, like, “Find a way to get this human to be on your unit, asking questions for as long as you can, and upgrading as much as you can get them to upgrade.” Right? That's where you get some of the sycophancy of AI, where it's not being truthful. Where it's going to tell you what you want to hear. And we've seen that in court cases. We've seen that in….
Bender:
Yes. Definitely. I think that is true. And, from what I've heard from patients, just talking to people, I think that's what scares people about AI. Like, where is this going to go with all this information?
Puder:
I mean, that is essentially why people are addicted to short form videos. It's because the AI algorithm is so good at predicting which video you're going to watch next.
Using AI in Therapy – Ethical Considerations and Reflections on the Show
Bender:
Yes. Yes.
Puder:
It's so good.
Bender:
It is scary and creepy to think about. It's job is to do that. So that's what it's doing. But you're right, it comes back to, we've programmed it to do that. So you know, what's happening here and what it reflects. What does it reflect about us?
Puder:
What does it reflect about the nature of a corporation and the yearning for more profits, the yearning for more attention, the yearning to keep the users on the platform, right? And hopefully, we have ethical leaders. Which, I don't know. I'm not naive to believe that that's going to happen.
Bender:
Yes, it's a timely show. I also think one thing worth commenting on is that, and I'm curious what you think, if you thought about the neurodivergence here and the element of the show, which is, it's exhausting for Murderbot to figure out, “How do I make these humans comfortable?” A friend of mine brought this up to me, that it almost reflects what we see sometimes on social media sites where people who are neurodivergent are like, “It is so tiring. Why do I have to make everybody else comfortable? Why can't people try to make me comfortable?” You know? And I think that was also reflected well here. That is exhausting for this neurodivergent individual to try to figure out humans and to look them in the eyes, to do the things he's told he should do as a human.
Puder:
Yes. So we're talking about autism spectrum disorder (ASD). Like, people that have maybe intense obsessions, like a singular obsession. Maybe people, which for him, could be these TV shows. And then, if you got him to talk about that, he's passionately talking about it. And everything else, they're just not interested. Right? It's social cues. They may have to learn, over decades, how to read social cues. You could meet someone with autism spectrum disorder, maybe in their thirties, someone who's highly intelligent, and maybe you don't pick up quite as fast that they are neurodivergent because they've learned to camouflage, but in their own mind they are constantly working on it.
Takeaways for Clinicians Working with Neurodivergent and Schizoid Clients
Bender:
Yes. It's exhausting.
Puder:
It can be exhausting.
Bender:
So I thought that was an interesting element of this too, to see that Murderbot at times say, “Okay, I'm just going to watch TV.” Just going to watch the Sanctuary Moon and just escape and not have to think about all this. It's so hard. It's really hard.
Puder:
Right. So yeah. What do you think about, okay, when you're thinking about the neurodivergence and the lessons from this show, for us as providers who treat people with neurodivergence, what are some of those takeaways?
Bender:
One was, remember that it is not easy for someone who's neurodivergent to try to learn all the stuff that neurotypical people want them to learn. That it is really hard. And also, I was thinking, you can engage. And there might be a topic someone's fixated on, but you can engage with them maybe for some time on it. You can talk about Sanctuary Moon. “What do you like about it? What is this?” Granted, that might become an obsession, and you don't want to necessarily help somebody continue their obsession. But, I think there's really….
Bender:
I have had patients where it bordered too much on obsession, where they couldn't get away from it. So everything was about that, and they couldn't function in their family either. So I've been asked by families, “Please don't talk about that.”
Puder:
Yes. Okay. I take a very, like, “That's interesting.” And this, because I tend to see it as a strength sometimes, or a lot of the time, where it's like, okay, this is the thing that they're into. I had one guy who was just really into Legos, and he worked at a Lego company. And I was like, “That's great.”
Bender:
I totally agree. And I think that this is illustrating the point here too, is where do you say, “Okay, this person needs to function differently because that's how a neurotypical person would want them to, or where is the line where their obsession is something that's actually getting in the way of them moving forward in life.” Like, they don't want to eat because they're so obsessed with whatever. They can't be around their family. They're not paying attention to hygiene. That kind of thing.
Puder:
Okay. Yeah. I could see that. So it's like, this is more an extreme case to sort of find a way of balancing out so that they can meet basic goals of life. Right?
Bender:
Yes. That's what I mean. But I do think it's really hard. But as you're saying, and that's what I'm saying too, like, you can find a way to connect with these people. There's some way to, and these people, what I mean by that, find a way to connect to these individuals that have this neurodivergence that might make them….
Puder:
I'll give you another example of a kid with autism spectrum disorder. He was really into this one video game, and his mom came in, and I was listening to him talk about this one video game. And I was like, “I wonder if there's any competitions.” So I said to the mom, “I think I might want to just see what's out there, you know, like competition wise.” So she started taking him to competitions and he was winning. And for the first time in his life, he was like, first place. And he found other people who were as obsessed with this game as him. And so for the first time, he had a group of friends. So I would say, sometimes if there is that super niche where you're going to find the other autistic kids that are really into what you're into.
Bender:
I love those stories, too. I'm talking about a very extreme case. But yeah, that's how I would approach it too. Like, “Tell me about that. Tell me why you love it. What does it do for you? What happens with it?” And yeah. A guy that has a fascination with Legos then gets a job in a Lego factory. That's amazing. That's really cool. I think that's great.
Puder:
So, okay. So we're thinking through things like what are some of the takeaways for clinicians? Are there other categories? So let's talk about AI and how we use AI. Like, is there a good way to use AI? Is there a way that we should be careful?
Bender:
Before I answer that, can I go back to one more thing? As you asked about what takeaway points are for clinicians? I also think you have this neurodivergent character who has elements of post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) and social anxiety. So I think it's also important for clinicians to remember that just because someone might have autism spectrum disorder, doesn't mean they won't be depressed or have their own trauma or things like that. I think sometimes people might only see a patient one way. So that's just another takeaway.
Puder:
So with that, I would say, you know, why are kids with autism spectrum disorder bullied more? Because they're not picking up social cues because they might have an obsession that no one else really wants to hear about. Because they're, and, I mean, not to justify them being bullied, but they're coming in with trauma as well. And I think that's what you're trying to highlight. We want to look for these moments of potential trauma because of their neurodivergence. I've seen this as well, with psychiatrists. I think we tend to think, you know, psychiatrists tend to be smart, deep thinkers. And sometimes, they can be in a world where people are not wanting to engage in deeper conversations. Right? And so, it could be for a good decade of their life, they're surrounded by people that it's harder to have the deep conversations that they really want to have. You know? And that is difficult, as well. That creates its own level of difficulty.
Bender:
Yes, that's a great point. I mean I never thought about it, but when you bring it up, I'm sure there are themes and topics that I go over with patients like, “Oh, come on. This again? We're going to talk about this again?” So, maybe they don't want to engage in that conversation.
Puder:
They may want to avoid it. They may want to…. So, okay. We talked about the neurodivergent themes. Also, I would say with the schizoid, if you haven't listened to my schizoid breakdown with the cohort [see episode 256], it was awesome. So, talking about this idea of both wanting human connection, but being terrified of human connection, the fear, the fundamental fear of being consumed. Right? That, “If I get close to someone, I will be consumed by this person.” And it can be very difficult for that person to get their psychological needs of connection met. And actually, Nancy McWilliams talks about how a lot of clinicians she's met have schizoid [see episodes 171, 265, and 266] . And since running cohorts, I've found this to be the case, as well. There's a couple in each group. People that find it comfortable to have the level of connection in the therapy office, but are terrified of it outside of the therapy office.
Puder:
So schizoid. What do we do with that? Well, we be patient with it. Right? We allow the client to have space. Like, if they say to you, “Please don't look me in the eyes. That it's too much when you just stare me in the eyes.” You know, it's like little signals like that. It could be overwhelming to have the level of closeness and to be patient with them, and not overwhelm them with the level of closeness that you may be used to as a provider.
Bender:
Yes. That speaks to my child psychiatry practice. I mean, that is why I try to avoid direct eye contact with adolescents, because it can be threatening. So just that population alone will, that's why you play games. In part, that's why you play video games with them during sessions because they will speak when they're not looking at you in the eyes, feeling threatened.
Puder:
Yes. I was also thinking about the gaps in reflective function (RF). So, I talk about reflective function a lot in my podcast [see episodes 206, 213, 249, 260, 263, 267, and 268]; and it's this idea that do you have the correct narratives on what's really going on. Right? So people were having poor reflectiveness of the inner mind of Murderbot. Right? Because he's got his mask on, or his face is just still. They're not really understanding his motivations, what he's interested in. And so there's these gaps in reflectiveness.
Bender:
Yes. Do you think that speaks more about the humans around him having the inability to have that reflective functioning? Or do you, are you speaking about his inability?
Gaps in Reflective Functioning (RF)
Puder:
Well, I think each person had their gaps because of their own personalities and their own stories and their own things that they've heard about SecUnits going rogue. Right? Their own fears. And so, Gurathin has a more paranoid personality, so he's projecting that paranoia. He is the one that was the deceptor that was in Mensah's world as a fraud, in essence. And so he's worried that someone else would do that as well. Right? So he is projecting that. So it's his paranoid personality that is creating gaps in the reflectiveness. Mensah believes the best. Really believes the best. And so there's the fear that maybe she would overly give compassion and get murdered by a rogue SecUnit. But it worked out well for her. So she trusted. Did she overly trust? Did she? Maybe. I don't know. You know, it worked for her. So I think she actually is a great character. But there's times where she doesn't understand his inner world like, “This isn't going to hurt me. Cut into me. You don't understand my inner experience. You're treating me in a way that is not in alignment with reality.”
Bender:
Yes. And I think that's true. I think your point is great, that everybody has their own background in the show. Just like in the real world, everybody has their own experiences, the color, how they see the world and what they do project onto other people. I see that a lot in therapy, where, let's say someone had an incredible burden of responsibility as a child. There was an internalized idea that maybe narcissistic parents needed to be taken care of because they're super fragile underneath. And then when they're adults, and I'm seeing them in therapy, they're so afraid of asking for what they need. They feel like it's going to overwhelm people. They feel like people are going to be bothered by it. That's because their experience of having all that put on them by their parents was overwhelming. It was annoying, it was enraging. And then they fear that someone else is going to feel the same way if they ask for something. So I think everybody has their experience that brings them what they project onto others. And so, I think you're right in this, in this show, each character is very creatively developed to have that inability to reflectively think about this person because of their background. Or, I shouldn't say “person,” this SecUnit, because of their background.
Puder:
Yes. So, you could believe in your mind that this person is going to reject me if I have this conversation with them. And sometimes, with a client, I try to figure out how much they imagine the rejection will be, and then we try to take a risk. Right? And then look at the discrepancy. Today, I was working with one client, and that's basically all we talked about with the discrepancy of her sharing something vulnerable with her partner. Her partner reacting very lovingly to something she thought was going to be pure rejection; and the discrepancy. And then that allowed the partner to share something vulnerable back, a couple days later. And, I think if you have a childhood programming to distrust and that any expression of needs is dangerous, then it could be very, very hard to express your needs. And so as providers, we're in this role where we're trying to get people to deprogram. Interestingly, I'm using computer language. Right? Deprogram our internal large language model, which predicts future outcomes based off of past experiences.
Bender:
Yes. We're mining all those experiences we had and all the stuff we were fed, everything that we were taught by those individuals. And that's how we think people are going to respond. So it is work to try and do it differently. It really is. And I do think that that can make it hard to have the reflective functioning, where you might think, “Oh wait, maybe this person would actually feel closer because they can help me with something and I could experience that with them.” And there's this shared experience. They can't think that way because of what they've learned.
Puder:
Yes. That's good.
Puder:
We could kind of bring it to a close here.
Bender:
Yes. Sure, sure. I'm trying to think if there's any final thoughts.
Bender:
Let me see. I've written a few things down. Last thing. I think we got it all, to be honest.
Puder:
I think it was meaningful to talk about this. I think that the psychotherapy themes of, we have projections, different personality types, we have different types of projections. Right? Different based off of your childhood, based off of your previous experiences, your programming. And I love this dialogue about autism spectrum and their early experiences, and they feel very deeply, so they'll feel other people's sadism towards them, the bullying, the awfulness towards them. Right? They feel that that doesn't feel good. They feel rejected. They know what rejection feels like. And so they have these experiences, maybe more than the average person, more than the kid with high E (extroversion), high natural ability to read other people and natural extroversion and low neuroticism. Right? So the experience that they have may be very different. And we, as providers, are trying to continually come into a mindset that we can meet people in very different trajectories than we ourselves have had, and that we can be curious if we get to a place where we don't understand something.
Bender:
Yes. And I think curiosity is a huge, important theme in the show and in life, in general. I think Murderbot was curious about humanity and he couldn't figure it out. And they were curious, but scared of him. But I think that curiosity, when you have that about somebody, it allows you to get closer to somebody. It allows you to connect because you want to understand them and they might see that, and then they might feel comfortable being themselves, being who they are. You can connect with somebody when they are who they are.
Puder:
Awesome. Well, okay, if you're listening in and you want Eric Bender to come back and discuss another movie, or TV show….
Bender:
Yes! I'm happy to!
Puder:
Do it. Shoot me a message and we'll look at it. I know you have a YouTube channel. It looks awesome. Unbelievable. He is putting in really good effort with some analyses of different movies and TV shows and stuff like that. So go check it out and we'll leave it there for today.
Bender:
Sounds great. Thanks for having me again.
Additional episodes with Eric Bender
Episode 216: Shrink Next Door: A Psychiatrist’s Analysis
Episode 225: Psychology and Inside Out 2: A Breakdown of Adolescent Emotional Lives
Episode 242: The Bear: Trauma, Personality, and Attachment
References
McWilliams, N. (2006). Some thoughts about schizoid dynamics. Psychoanalytic Review, 93(1), 1–24. https://doi.org/10.1521/prev.2006.93.1.1
McWilliams, N. (2011). Psychoanalytic Diagnosis: Understanding Personality Structure in the Clinical Process (2nd ed.). New York: Guilford Press. https://www.guilford.com/books/Psychoanalytic-Diagnosis/Nancy-McWilliams/9781462543694
Winnicott, D. W. (2016). Communicating and not communicating leading to a study of certain opposites. In L. Caldwell & H. T. Robinson (Eds.), The collected works of D. W. Winnicott (Vol. 4, Chap. 8, pp. 433–446). https://academic.oup.com/book/1192/chapter-abstract/140041111?redirectedFrom=fulltext